1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,000 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,540 Commons license. 3 00:00:05,540 --> 00:00:07,840 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,230 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:12,230 --> 00:00:14,830 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:14,830 --> 00:00:18,790 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:18,790 --> 00:00:19,790 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,437 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: The more we can measure volume, 9 00:00:25,437 --> 00:00:28,510 the more we'll be able to follow the recent law we got passed 10 00:00:28,510 --> 00:00:30,840 that says they have to prioritize the highest 11 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,807 volume for climate hazard. 12 00:00:33,807 --> 00:00:34,640 So that's a new law. 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,185 They never got to do it, so now they need the information, 14 00:00:38,185 --> 00:00:41,623 and they've never gotten [INAUDIBLE] 15 00:00:41,623 --> 00:00:42,790 cared about explosion risk. 16 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:47,110 The president of Eversource Gas in the meeting recently, he 17 00:00:47,110 --> 00:00:48,877 was very talkative, and he started 18 00:00:48,877 --> 00:00:50,460 talking about how there's new research 19 00:00:50,460 --> 00:00:53,762 and development in natural gas restructure in the US period. 20 00:00:53,762 --> 00:00:54,470 They don't do it. 21 00:00:54,470 --> 00:00:57,080 No one else does it-- that they go to France, England, 22 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,194 and Germany, because they invest in R&D for this field, 23 00:01:01,194 --> 00:01:02,610 and they find out what's going on. 24 00:01:02,610 --> 00:01:03,776 And they're way ahead of us. 25 00:01:03,776 --> 00:01:07,670 They're way ahead of us over there, 26 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:11,220 which was really interesting to me to hear. 27 00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:14,665 And they, in that room, there was 28 00:01:14,665 --> 00:01:16,940 no doubt they have no idea what the problem is. 29 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:18,220 They don't measure it. 30 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:20,390 They don't document it. 31 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:22,660 And from what we can tell so far, 32 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:26,030 there's no acceptable norm on how to measure it. 33 00:01:26,030 --> 00:01:31,510 So there is these two really kind of kludgy methods to me, 34 00:01:31,510 --> 00:01:32,705 and then there's-- 35 00:01:32,705 --> 00:01:34,900 I mean, we're trying to invent a method that's 36 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:36,650 actually the utilities can go out and do. 37 00:01:36,650 --> 00:01:39,796 Because the guys on the ground have to do it. 38 00:01:39,796 --> 00:01:41,670 DAVID OLIVER: You know what's kind of funny-- 39 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:42,503 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yeah? 40 00:01:42,503 --> 00:01:44,440 DAVID OLIVER: --is that you can find it 41 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,540 when it's, you know, sort of naturally occurring and worth 42 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:51,278 something to us, but we can't find it when it's 43 00:01:51,278 --> 00:01:52,740 going through our own system. 44 00:01:52,740 --> 00:01:54,797 It's sad. 45 00:01:54,797 --> 00:01:56,380 And it's three feet below the surface. 46 00:01:56,380 --> 00:01:58,046 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Piece of data on volume-- 47 00:01:58,046 --> 00:02:00,030 did you tell them about the Harvard study? 48 00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:01,690 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, I did earlier. 49 00:02:01,690 --> 00:02:05,070 So we know how much there is from the top down from the, 50 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:05,570 you know-- 51 00:02:05,570 --> 00:02:07,850 in the atmosphere, we know how much gas there is, 52 00:02:07,850 --> 00:02:11,072 but we don't know where the most-- you know, that 5%-- 53 00:02:11,072 --> 00:02:14,380 5% to 7% of the worst gas leaks are. 54 00:02:14,380 --> 00:02:19,000 So this is-- we have to come up with a method to-- 55 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,695 when they're about to repair the leak-- 56 00:02:20,695 --> 00:02:23,070 after they've pinpointed what they think is a high-volume 57 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:26,029 leak, how do we-- 58 00:02:26,029 --> 00:02:28,870 SPEAKER 1: Verify that that's a [INAUDIBLE] 59 00:02:28,870 --> 00:02:36,250 SPEAKER 2: Do we have on that global thing, gas in, gas out? 60 00:02:36,250 --> 00:02:37,486 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 61 00:02:37,486 --> 00:02:39,407 Over time, by-- 62 00:02:39,407 --> 00:02:41,240 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: It doesn't match the outside. 63 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:42,906 SPEAKER 2: Well, of course it shouldn't. 64 00:02:42,906 --> 00:02:45,680 Leakage is def-- but how is that changing all the time? 65 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,980 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So the utilities have crappy data. 66 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:48,980 They have crappy meters. 67 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:50,180 They have crappy everything. 68 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:56,320 So they have no-- so your meter at your house is not a very 69 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,100 good, you know, temperature changes-- 70 00:02:58,100 --> 00:02:59,080 SPEAKER 2: It's right, plus or minus 71 00:02:59,080 --> 00:02:59,926 x, where x is too big a number. 72 00:02:59,926 --> 00:03:02,140 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, the margin of error is huge. 73 00:03:02,140 --> 00:03:04,260 What this is-- just to give the idea 74 00:03:04,260 --> 00:03:05,760 that we've come up with after months 75 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,115 of working with the utilities and ripping information out 76 00:03:09,115 --> 00:03:13,420 of them is to use these two instruments when 77 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:16,210 they-- so they pinpointed-- so this is that point 78 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:18,460 that they pinpointed the high volume-- what they think 79 00:03:18,460 --> 00:03:19,960 is a high-volume leak. 80 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,340 And in order to do that, they drill holes in the streets. 81 00:03:24,340 --> 00:03:28,240 So they found using this instrument and another one-- 82 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,200 they found that there's gas in the area. 83 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,170 And they stuck this, with a probe on it, into the soil, 84 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:38,850 and they found sort of the leak extent, the area in the ground 85 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:41,860 that has a lot of gas in it. 86 00:03:41,860 --> 00:03:44,590 And then they drill holes in the streets. 87 00:03:44,590 --> 00:03:47,170 So maybe, let's say, it goes from 21 Smith street 88 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:49,300 to 25 Smith street, and then they 89 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:53,356 drill holes in the street along there and use this again. 90 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:54,980 They put the probe in each of the holes 91 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:57,000 in the street over the pipe. 92 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,000 Should I draw a picture? 93 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,865 Does this-- 94 00:04:00,865 --> 00:04:03,490 SPEAKER 3: They don't drill into the pipe-- just over the pipe. 95 00:04:03,490 --> 00:04:04,781 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Over the pipe. 96 00:04:04,781 --> 00:04:07,090 And they stick this probe in and find out where 97 00:04:07,090 --> 00:04:09,818 the highest percent of gas is. 98 00:04:09,818 --> 00:04:14,260 DAVID OLIVER: So they're working with a map of the pipes, right? 99 00:04:14,260 --> 00:04:17,850 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: They usually have a printed out, like, sketchy 100 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:20,539 little map with a line, and it's approximate. 101 00:04:20,539 --> 00:04:21,990 I've watched them do it. 102 00:04:21,990 --> 00:04:23,220 It's close. 103 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:25,210 They kind of know where their pipe is. 104 00:04:25,210 --> 00:04:27,310 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They drill holes in the street. 105 00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:30,360 They take this thing-- and stick the probe in those holes 106 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,460 and find out where the highest gas is-- the highest 107 00:04:33,460 --> 00:04:35,240 percentage of gas is. 108 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,430 And so, then they excavate at that point, 109 00:04:40,430 --> 00:04:43,584 because they assume the leak was right there. 110 00:04:43,584 --> 00:04:45,500 SPEAKER 3: And they admitted how often they're 111 00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:46,877 right when they do that? 112 00:04:46,877 --> 00:04:48,960 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They do not share any information 113 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:49,930 at all of any kind. 114 00:04:49,930 --> 00:04:51,704 SPEAKER 3: All right, the latest theory-- 115 00:04:51,704 --> 00:04:54,120 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They believe this method works very well, 116 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,664 but anybody who's looked at streets, 117 00:04:56,664 --> 00:04:58,330 you'll see lots of, like patches, right, 118 00:04:58,330 --> 00:05:00,890 when at any time, they-- so sometimes they screw up. 119 00:05:00,890 --> 00:05:01,570 How often? 120 00:05:01,570 --> 00:05:02,360 We don't know. 121 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,334 SPEAKER 2: Go look at the [INAUDIBLE] wells. 122 00:05:04,334 --> 00:05:05,238 Just go look at it. 123 00:05:05,238 --> 00:05:08,504 They just repainted it, and it's already-- 124 00:05:08,504 --> 00:05:10,170 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So if they're confused. 125 00:05:10,170 --> 00:05:13,110 If say, this is 100%, this is 100%, 126 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:15,110 this is 100%, they don't where the leak is, 127 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:17,770 what they do is they use this. 128 00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:24,960 They stick that in down into the hole that they've-- 129 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,180 one of these holes. 130 00:05:27,180 --> 00:05:31,800 They put a compressor in this side, 131 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,010 and they open this valve-- 132 00:05:34,010 --> 00:05:35,680 so, already, I guess it is open-- 133 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,450 so that 80 pounds per square inch of air 134 00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:42,490 is being blown across here. 135 00:05:42,490 --> 00:05:46,390 This is a hollow tube, so it sucks air up really quickly. 136 00:05:46,390 --> 00:05:48,900 And this plunger gets pushed down, 137 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:51,134 so that it's sealed to the street. 138 00:05:51,134 --> 00:05:52,050 Does that makes sense? 139 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:53,367 SPEAKER 3: Mhm. 140 00:05:53,367 --> 00:05:55,200 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So air is being pulled out, 141 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,760 you know, really quickly. 142 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,540 It's a vacuum-- drags all the gas out of the ground, 143 00:06:00,540 --> 00:06:02,985 and that way, they vacuum all the gas out 144 00:06:02,985 --> 00:06:05,490 from this entire area. 145 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:09,430 And then they use the CGI again to this thing 146 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:12,810 to see where the gas is coming back up fastest, 147 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,315 and that's where they excavate to fix the leak. 148 00:06:15,315 --> 00:06:16,190 Does that make sense? 149 00:06:16,190 --> 00:06:17,470 SPEAKER 3: Yes, I get it. 150 00:06:17,470 --> 00:06:18,900 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So we want to use 151 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:24,180 this tool in a different way to find how big the leak is. 152 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:26,070 So instead, once they pin the leak-- 153 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:30,120 once they found the leak, we want to take this and put it 154 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,140 in the ground. 155 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:35,670 Again, attach a regulate-- a compressor here, 156 00:06:35,670 --> 00:06:42,780 blow the air out, and put a combustible gas indicator here 157 00:06:42,780 --> 00:06:46,740 to see what the percentage is of gas coming out of it. 158 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:50,360 By doing that, we will know how much the flow-through, right-- 159 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,580 because it's 80 pounds per square inch coming out of here, 160 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,180 and we'll know the percentage of gas. 161 00:06:56,180 --> 00:07:00,060 And using that, we can get a rough idea of how much, 162 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:02,840 how big the leak is, how much gas is coming out 163 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:04,170 and how quickly. 164 00:07:04,170 --> 00:07:07,034 Does that make sense? 165 00:07:07,034 --> 00:07:07,950 SPEAKER 4: [INAUDIBLE] 166 00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:08,695 AUDREY SCHULMAN: This is a purger. 167 00:07:08,695 --> 00:07:10,260 We only learned about it on Friday. 168 00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:12,681 I am so excited to have it here. 169 00:07:12,681 --> 00:07:14,142 SPEAKER 5: It's called a diffuser. 170 00:07:14,142 --> 00:07:15,225 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Diffuser. 171 00:07:18,187 --> 00:07:20,020 DAVID OLIVER: The message that you described 172 00:07:20,020 --> 00:07:24,120 sounds like it will tell you roughly 173 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,416 how much gas was trapped in the area that you were evacuating, 174 00:07:28,416 --> 00:07:32,810 which might not be adjacent to the leak-- it could travel 175 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:33,950 and then get trapped. 176 00:07:33,950 --> 00:07:35,340 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So you have to wait for a steady state 177 00:07:35,340 --> 00:07:35,849 reading. 178 00:07:35,849 --> 00:07:36,640 DAVID OLIVER: True. 179 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,960 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So the gas will pocket up 180 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,230 underneath the pavement, because gas is lighter than air. 181 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:46,170 And so, you will get a sort of pool of gas 182 00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:49,830 right up against the pavement, and for the first few minutes, 183 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:51,920 you're going to pull out that residual-- 184 00:07:51,920 --> 00:08:00,740 SPEAKER 2: So don't you also [INAUDIBLE] nature of that 185 00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:02,550 substance-- 186 00:08:02,550 --> 00:08:04,777 sand, clay, dirt. 187 00:08:04,777 --> 00:08:05,860 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Aha, yes. 188 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:09,297 Whether it's wet, whether it's dry, and yes, 189 00:08:09,297 --> 00:08:10,130 the temperature is-- 190 00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:13,504 SPEAKER 2: --what the nature is of that diffusing material. 191 00:08:13,504 --> 00:08:17,124 AUDREY SCHULMAN: To get an exact measurement, yes, we would. 192 00:08:17,124 --> 00:08:19,900 But the high-volume leaks are 10 times bigger-- 193 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:23,237 more bigger than that the low-volume leaks, so got to-- 194 00:08:23,237 --> 00:08:24,820 SPEAKER 2: So that shouldn't matter -- 195 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:26,986 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So you've got an order of magnitude 196 00:08:26,986 --> 00:08:29,490 difference, so all that stuff hopefully will be-- 197 00:08:29,490 --> 00:08:31,700 I mean, we'll have to find out. 198 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:33,760 But I think this method will work enough 199 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,020 to get us in the ball field, so that we can say, 200 00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:38,248 high volume, not high volume, higher-- 201 00:08:38,248 --> 00:08:40,039 you know, we just want to bucket the leaks, 202 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:42,130 basically, categorize them. 203 00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:44,100 DAVID OLIVER: I got a question. 204 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:45,960 So they're fixing-- they're trying 205 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:52,080 to fix what will be categorized as high-volume, right? 206 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,211 They're not trying to fix everything that they find, 207 00:08:55,211 --> 00:08:55,710 right? 208 00:08:55,710 --> 00:08:57,251 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Right, this law that 209 00:08:57,251 --> 00:09:00,459 got passed is simply to fix the high-volume leaks. 210 00:09:00,459 --> 00:09:01,250 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah. 211 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:09,950 But, you know, when they go and they do their testing, 212 00:09:09,950 --> 00:09:12,750 and they get a series of readings, 213 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:15,210 they basically guess where they think 214 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:17,120 the high volume is, fix that joint, 215 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,443 and then they forget about what's 12 feet that way 216 00:09:19,443 --> 00:09:20,892 and 12 feet that way. 217 00:09:23,435 --> 00:09:24,310 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes. 218 00:09:24,310 --> 00:09:25,930 You mean there could be another leak? 219 00:09:25,930 --> 00:09:26,570 Is that what you're-- 220 00:09:26,570 --> 00:09:27,611 DAVID OLIVER: Well, sure. 221 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,780 I mean, in the case of they picked the wrong one, 222 00:09:32,780 --> 00:09:34,636 and there's still a high-volume leak there-- 223 00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:37,170 and it's that that doesn't get found until maybe they 224 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:39,929 come back to the same spot. 225 00:09:39,929 --> 00:09:40,970 SPEAKER 2: Well, back up. 226 00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:42,400 How do they determine? 227 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,980 Is there another step once they picked the highest volume 228 00:09:45,980 --> 00:09:48,240 and dug to the ground? 229 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,010 I've watched them-- a physical test 230 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:56,980 of identifying a real leak-- you know, pipe, gas spewing out 231 00:09:56,980 --> 00:09:59,580 at the actual leak once it's uncovered. 232 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:03,580 Is that a standard process, or do they-- 233 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:07,100 to your own point, there may only be one leak. 234 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:09,148 There's a physical identification of the leak 235 00:10:09,148 --> 00:10:11,096 once they've decided to take action. 236 00:10:11,096 --> 00:10:11,970 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes. 237 00:10:11,970 --> 00:10:12,840 But we can-- 238 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,050 SPEAKER 2: There could be five or six of them. 239 00:10:14,050 --> 00:10:15,660 AUDREY SCHULMAN: We have to assume they somewhat 240 00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:16,868 know their job, so they can-- 241 00:10:16,868 --> 00:10:19,120 they'll find the leak, and they'll fix it. 242 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,010 And afterwards-- and a lot of these 243 00:10:22,010 --> 00:10:26,950 might be weak complexes, which means many leaks 244 00:10:26,950 --> 00:10:31,390 along the way in which case the whole area, that 21 to 25 245 00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:34,010 Smith street is a leak complex, and they 246 00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:35,540 have to fix all those leaks. 247 00:10:35,540 --> 00:10:39,330 So they should use this method to measure the emissions off 248 00:10:39,330 --> 00:10:43,930 of each one of those sub-leaks and then add them up 249 00:10:43,930 --> 00:10:47,420 into one high-volume leak. 250 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:48,980 So the utilities use the word leak 251 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:50,920 in a very different way than we do, 252 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,340 which is like leak location. 253 00:10:54,340 --> 00:10:57,400 So then we will be adding up all the emissions, which 254 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,720 means that this method should not suck the gas out 255 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,050 of more than one leak. 256 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:07,760 Or if it does, we will have to figure out how to-- 257 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,820 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah, I think it might. 258 00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:12,500 I would imagine that if you have gas pooling, 259 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:14,800 or you have multiple leaks, there's 260 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,744 going to be some connection between them? 261 00:11:16,744 --> 00:11:17,660 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 262 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:19,368 DAVID OLIVER: So if you create a volume-- 263 00:11:19,368 --> 00:11:22,134 a vacuum here, it's going to start pulling from the other. 264 00:11:22,134 --> 00:11:23,050 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 265 00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:25,150 So one of the things we possibly can do 266 00:11:25,150 --> 00:11:28,000 is there's going to be somewhere it's just going to be one leak, 267 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,950 and using that data, we can figure out 268 00:11:29,950 --> 00:11:31,940 what the average leak is. 269 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:36,760 And therefore, when we have a leak location, a leak complex, 270 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,890 we can hopefully figure out how much 271 00:11:38,890 --> 00:11:41,180 overage there is-- how much excess gas 272 00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:42,790 we're pulling in from the others. 273 00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:44,380 Yeah, so the things I think we need-- 274 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:46,790 I think we need two things. 275 00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:50,090 One is some sort of regulator to step this down, 276 00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:53,195 so the compressor coming in at 80 PSI in. 277 00:11:53,195 --> 00:11:55,570 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Well, the other thing is this says 80 PSI, 278 00:11:55,570 --> 00:11:57,872 but the guys in the truck say their compressor is 120. 279 00:11:57,872 --> 00:11:59,110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 280 00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:59,880 So some sort of-- 281 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:01,960 DAVID OLIVER: [INAUDIBLE] crank it up all the way up though. 282 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,001 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And so, how do we make sure what-- 283 00:12:04,001 --> 00:12:05,650 because if we don't know pressure. 284 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:08,390 AUDREY SCHULMAN: If we don't have the known rate of speed 285 00:12:08,390 --> 00:12:10,900 across here, the data's crap. 286 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:16,300 And we also don't want to vacuum up higher than the operating 287 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:17,940 pressure of the pipe. 288 00:12:17,940 --> 00:12:18,483 So the pipe-- 289 00:12:18,483 --> 00:12:18,811 DAVID OLIVER: Because then you'll 290 00:12:18,811 --> 00:12:20,120 just draw it out of the pipe? 291 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:20,330 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Right. 292 00:12:20,330 --> 00:12:21,788 And it will be increasing the leak, 293 00:12:21,788 --> 00:12:24,400 and it will be crappy data again. 294 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:25,300 Does that make sense? 295 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:26,133 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yeah. 296 00:12:26,133 --> 00:12:27,610 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So these pipes can 297 00:12:27,610 --> 00:12:32,800 be anywhere from 0.5, that we're going to be working with, 298 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,490 to 60 PSI, so 120 times-- 299 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:39,556 so that's a difficult problem on its own. 300 00:12:39,556 --> 00:12:40,930 So we need some sort of regulator 301 00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:42,460 that will not increase-- you know, 302 00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:46,280 that probably is going to at 0.5 PSI, 303 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,060 so we have to step this down enormously. 304 00:12:49,060 --> 00:12:52,390 So that's one problem, and I don't know if that's true. 305 00:12:52,390 --> 00:12:55,200 So I am not a scientist, so anybody who wants to-- 306 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,784 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah, I mean, putting 307 00:12:56,784 --> 00:12:58,200 80 PSI on that doesn't mean you're 308 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,350 going to create an 80 PSI-- 309 00:13:00,350 --> 00:13:04,830 a negative 80 PSI vacuum, but there 310 00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:06,087 is a correlation [INAUDIBLE] 311 00:13:06,087 --> 00:13:08,170 AUDREY SCHULMAN: OK, so what's the regulator here? 312 00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:09,870 How far do we have to step it down? 313 00:13:09,870 --> 00:13:11,620 What regulator, I need the doohickey 314 00:13:11,620 --> 00:13:16,029 that goes here to be able to step it down in a correct-- 315 00:13:16,029 --> 00:13:17,570 you know, in a way that it will not-- 316 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:19,236 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: We need to control this-- 317 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:21,580 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, and preferably just one setting, 318 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:24,280 because these guys are going to be like, you just turn it on. 319 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:25,330 Just do it. 320 00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:27,149 You know, I got to go for lunch. 321 00:13:27,149 --> 00:13:28,690 DAVID OLIVER: Without modifying this? 322 00:13:28,690 --> 00:13:29,860 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes, without modifying it. 323 00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:31,443 So it's going to be another doohickey. 324 00:13:31,443 --> 00:13:34,660 They're going to take this off, put the other doohickey in, 325 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:35,940 and crank it on. 326 00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:38,320 DAVID OLIVER: Because if they're-- yeah, if they're-- 327 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,890 if you measure PSI here, then you're 328 00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:49,564 getting sort of a direct reading of the vacuum 329 00:13:49,564 --> 00:13:50,730 that you're creating, right? 330 00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:51,330 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 331 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:52,540 So there is this valve, but we don't 332 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:53,790 know if this valve is working. 333 00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:54,780 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah. 334 00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:58,970 But, I mean, if you take the 80 PSI that you're putting in, 335 00:13:58,970 --> 00:14:05,020 you can calculate what that vacuum should be, so, you know, 336 00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:10,120 that could be simply a lookup chart or something 337 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,120 like that for them. 338 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,360 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, we got have it-- 339 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,818 you know, the whole thing is to make it so simple they just 340 00:14:14,818 --> 00:14:17,370 write down one number in the end-- error-proof, 341 00:14:17,370 --> 00:14:18,890 and you got to imagine. 342 00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:20,770 You've seen the contractors out there, right? 343 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:22,430 This is not of their interest. 344 00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:24,180 They are doing this unwillingly, so we 345 00:14:24,180 --> 00:14:26,740 have to come up with a super, super simple method that 346 00:14:26,740 --> 00:14:27,949 can just bucket the leaks. 347 00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:29,365 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: So there seem to be 348 00:14:29,365 --> 00:14:32,290 two techniques in the literature for volume measurement of gas. 349 00:14:32,290 --> 00:14:36,580 One is the chamber method, which is a closed sample and measured 350 00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:39,290 over time to get flow rate, and the other one 351 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:43,212 is the flow rate, which is the rate of air movement-- 352 00:14:43,212 --> 00:14:44,670 you know the speed of air movement, 353 00:14:44,670 --> 00:14:46,970 and then you take one point sample. 354 00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:49,060 So the idea of this, we're actually 355 00:14:49,060 --> 00:14:51,611 going to be doing the chamber method 356 00:14:51,611 --> 00:14:54,700 on the leaks in the street. 357 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:56,860 It's error proof. 358 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:59,921 And the idea of this is to try to get the flow-rate method 359 00:14:59,921 --> 00:15:05,110 measurement, so maybe we will also take some capsules that-- 360 00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:07,110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They're not going to go for it. 361 00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:08,693 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: They're very concerned. 362 00:15:08,693 --> 00:15:10,350 They're very risk-averse. 363 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:14,232 They're very concerned about any capturing of gas. 364 00:15:14,232 --> 00:15:15,940 AUDREY SCHULMAN: I meant I can't tell you 365 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:19,390 how unusual it is that they are willing to do this. 366 00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:22,762 This alone is a stunning step forward. 367 00:15:22,762 --> 00:15:24,970 DAVID OLIVER: Are these guys employees of the utility 368 00:15:24,970 --> 00:15:26,819 companies or subcontractors? 369 00:15:26,819 --> 00:15:28,110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Probably both. 370 00:15:28,110 --> 00:15:28,960 DAVID OLIVER: OK. 371 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,570 Is there a possibility of kind of developing somebody-- 372 00:15:31,570 --> 00:15:35,530 I mean, developing a core of trained professionals who 373 00:15:35,530 --> 00:15:37,989 would then contract with the utility companies who do this? 374 00:15:37,989 --> 00:15:40,405 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So we're going to do a training basically 375 00:15:40,405 --> 00:15:42,810 with the utilities to teach them how to do the technique, 376 00:15:42,810 --> 00:15:45,979 but first we need to come up with the exact technique. 377 00:15:45,979 --> 00:15:48,270 And that's like in three weeks, so we're on a deadline. 378 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:49,670 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And we're trying to figure out a way 379 00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:51,086 to incentivize it for the guys. 380 00:15:51,086 --> 00:15:53,085 We've been talking to them, and actually they're 381 00:15:53,085 --> 00:15:54,555 not all the same age. 382 00:15:54,555 --> 00:15:55,430 There's a wide array. 383 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:59,028 Some of them are actually pretty interested, so to be fair. 384 00:16:08,395 --> 00:16:11,353 It seems like we have three different ideas so far. 385 00:16:11,353 --> 00:16:14,311 Does that make sense? 386 00:16:14,311 --> 00:16:21,043 We have the one we just said at sensor-- 387 00:16:21,043 --> 00:16:24,424 what are we calling this part of the doohickey? 388 00:16:24,424 --> 00:16:25,390 Inlet. 389 00:16:25,390 --> 00:16:26,839 DAVID OLIVER: Inlet-- 390 00:16:26,839 --> 00:16:30,703 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: --into inlet two. 391 00:16:30,703 --> 00:16:41,010 Two is no sensor used pressure to pressure, and 3 is attach-- 392 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:45,565 SPEAKER 2: Sensor-dependent output. 393 00:16:45,565 --> 00:16:48,690 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: --sensor to output. 394 00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:53,967 OK, so each of these definitely have pros and cons. 395 00:16:53,967 --> 00:16:55,954 That's where we're at, right? 396 00:16:55,954 --> 00:16:56,620 SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 397 00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:58,450 DAVID OLIVER: Number two is also doing 398 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:00,290 the sort of baseline measurements, correct? 399 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:01,665 SPEAKER 2: Yeah, that's the pros, 400 00:17:01,665 --> 00:17:03,850 and we don't know if two works. 401 00:17:03,850 --> 00:17:07,369 I would argue that if two works, that 402 00:17:07,369 --> 00:17:10,940 meets your operational issues better than anything else, 403 00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:11,680 because you-- 404 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,055 all you're asking them is to read 405 00:17:13,055 --> 00:17:17,880 this meter That's the change in process, basically. 406 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,099 DAVID OLIVER: The good thing about one 407 00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:25,450 is that they see something that may alarm them, as opposed to-- 408 00:17:25,450 --> 00:17:28,720 well, actually, if they do enough for the calculations, 409 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,790 and they may see the pressure reading, and say, 410 00:17:30,790 --> 00:17:32,001 oh, something's wrong. 411 00:17:32,001 --> 00:17:34,250 But if they see something new that says, ooh, problem. 412 00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:35,870 SPEAKER 2: Yeah, no, I'm with you, but-- 413 00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:36,720 DAVID OLIVER: The red light goes on. 414 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,094 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Should we go through a new pros and cons? 415 00:17:39,094 --> 00:17:40,510 SPEAKER 2: It might be worthwhile. 416 00:17:40,510 --> 00:17:41,440 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Or is this the kind of thing 417 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,565 where maybe we should just test all of the options. 418 00:17:43,565 --> 00:17:44,550 Like, work them out. 419 00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:47,130 Break into a group and work out what 420 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:48,460 we would need to do to test it. 421 00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:49,960 DAVID OLIVER: Or, you know, you said 422 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,285 the pressure variation in the pipes is 0.5 PSI to-- 423 00:17:55,285 --> 00:17:56,410 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: To 60 PSI. 424 00:17:56,410 --> 00:17:57,954 DAVID OLIVER: --to 60, jeese. 425 00:17:57,954 --> 00:17:59,620 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And that's just the pipes 426 00:17:59,620 --> 00:18:00,880 that we need them working on. 427 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,270 DAVID OLIVER: Don't be standard or OK. 428 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:06,160 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: So that's one of the reasons why 429 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,320 this is a hard problem. 430 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,220 That's why I want to step this down, 431 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:13,150 so that we don't ever, like, pull 432 00:18:13,150 --> 00:18:15,722 the gas out of the pipe faster than the leak would normally 433 00:18:15,722 --> 00:18:16,722 be. 434 00:18:16,722 --> 00:18:18,680 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So should we break into groups 435 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,250 to look at these three possible methods 436 00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:23,680 and sort of come up with some of the questions, 437 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,770 the experiments that need to happen, 438 00:18:25,770 --> 00:18:28,206 the products associated? 439 00:18:28,206 --> 00:18:29,580 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: A next-steps list? 440 00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:30,496 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 441 00:18:36,717 --> 00:18:38,800 DAVID OLIVER: First of all, they can control that. 442 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,760 They can control the input pressure, 443 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,900 so they can control the pressure drawn, 444 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,000 and there is ton of resistance in the soil. 445 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,192 So in order to do that, you would have to really crank up 446 00:18:49,192 --> 00:18:49,900 the pressurized-- 447 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:50,150 SPEAKER 2: I don't know. 448 00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:50,430 I'm just-- 449 00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:51,490 DAVID OLIVER: I don't-- you know-- 450 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:52,910 SPEAKER 2: I don't know if I'm even in the right ballpark. 451 00:18:52,910 --> 00:18:55,090 DAVID OLIVER: I think there is so much resistance in the soil. 452 00:18:55,090 --> 00:18:56,550 SPEAKER 2: If there's enough resistance, it's not a crack, 453 00:18:56,550 --> 00:18:57,480 and then I don't care. 454 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,939 But if it is, if it's close-- 455 00:18:58,939 --> 00:19:00,438 DAVID OLIVER: Maybe it's dried sand. 456 00:19:03,650 --> 00:19:06,210 The other thing that's going to happen is where you have 457 00:19:06,210 --> 00:19:09,863 a leak, you're normally going to have some diffusion in the soil 458 00:19:09,863 --> 00:19:13,364 so they're going to be finding wherever their path of least 459 00:19:13,364 --> 00:19:16,265 resistance is, but then you introduce a vacuum where 460 00:19:16,265 --> 00:19:20,360 it's-- you're going to want to draw the gas towards that? 461 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,735 Whether the leak is here, or it's over there. 462 00:19:22,735 --> 00:19:23,610 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Right. 463 00:19:23,610 --> 00:19:28,378 So maybe the distance between the leak and our drill hole 464 00:19:28,378 --> 00:19:33,218 doesn't matter, and maybe it does. 465 00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:39,760 Sorry, if I made it-- 466 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,749 SPEAKER 2: What is clear about this is this all eminently 467 00:19:42,749 --> 00:19:43,248 testable. 468 00:19:43,248 --> 00:19:45,210 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yes. 469 00:19:45,210 --> 00:19:47,043 SPEAKER 2: This is all experimental research 470 00:19:47,043 --> 00:19:49,514 and try it and-- 471 00:19:49,514 --> 00:19:51,520 but it doesn't sound like you have [INAUDIBLE] 472 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,410 DAVID OLIVER: So to do these-- 473 00:19:53,410 --> 00:19:55,966 SPEAKER 2: That's a plus. 474 00:19:55,966 --> 00:19:58,336 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So there are, like, the Gas Technology 475 00:19:58,336 --> 00:20:02,390 Institute that's [INAUDIBLE] and there's the Montreal Research 476 00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:02,920 Institute? 477 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,440 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And they have a buried pipe in the ground. 478 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:05,590 You can turn the valve flow. 479 00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:07,131 AUDREY SCHULMAN: But that costs money 480 00:20:07,131 --> 00:20:08,763 to do that in place and test things. 481 00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:15,504 Whereas, you know, a small non-profit --.